Kaltura Audio Component

From the studios of
KPCW and Park City,

this is Cool Science
Radio. Science and

technology that's
accessible and entertaining.

If we can understand
it, you can understand

it. I'm Lynn Ware Peek.
And I'm John Wells.

Our guest, Dr. Jeffrey
Rosenbluth, is the

founder of Tetradapt
at the University of

Utah's Rehabilitation
Center. Jeffrey is a

professor of spinal cord
medicine, and through

his work at the
university, he partners

with the colleges of
mechanical engineering,

computer science,
architecture and

planning, business,
and health to design

cutting-edge technology
and provide essential

programs that improve
the quality of

life for individuals
with disabilities.

Today, he and his team
will be demoing his

new biotech innovation,
the TetraCraft.

And last winter, he
had the TetraSki on

the ******. He says
it's a paradigm shift

for those with
disabilities, and it's

groundbreaking work to
advance technology for

people living with
complex disabilities.

Jeffrey
Rosenbluth, welcome

to Cool Science Radio.

Thank you so much.

tetradapt this is this
little engineering

zone within the university
of utah rehab center

that you founded and
i first found out

about you last winter
with a tetra ski for

adaptive athletes and
now you're back with the

tetra craft uh that
you're demoing on east

canyon reservoir today
from 10 to 2 and boy

i almost don't know
where to start so why

don't we start with
today tell us about the

tetra craft so it's a
tetra watercraft and so

this is a modified
uh hobie kayak slash

sailboat and so we take
uh an existing hull and

and and watercraft and
then we modify it for

use for folks with
fairly complex physical

disabilities and so the
the whole word tetra

meaning four meaning
that all four limbs

are affected with some
degree of paralysis so

these are individuals
that really couldn't

use any type of typical
watercraft. And we've

modified this with
motors for steering and

motors for sail control.
And that enables

folks to be able to
use other input devices

like just their mouth
and breathing and

switches and joysticks
to be able to control the

boat just the same way
you would be able to

without a disability.
So what was the genesis

of all of this, because
I know the Tetris

ski is very much the
same where they're

controlling with their
mouth or even blowing,

be able to direct the
craft, whether ski or

watercraft. Where was
the void that you saw

in adaptive technology
that turned on a

light for you and made
you know the direction

you wanted to go?
Sure. Yeah, it goes way

back to the 80s. And so
I actually in college

got involved with
teaching adaptive sports

and adaptive skiing
before I I went to medical

school and, you know,
really saw the impact

of these sports, went
all the way through

medical school and to
my position in rehab

and then really kind
of went back to sports

again because it's
just such a powerful

thing. There's so many
people that are injured

whose identity is
wrapped up in a lot of

the activities, the
hobbies, the sports that

they do. And it seemed
like from my time back

in the 80s till
currently there's been,

you know, some technology
that's been very

impressive, but in
many ways, some of the

technology has left
behind people with more

complex injuries. And
we have a lot more tools

now to address that
and a lot of areas that

I thought we could
still improve. And so we

really started to
specialize, I would say,

in that most complex
individual that there

really wasn't anything
out there on the market

for them to participate
or participate

at least at the same
level of performance and

independence as
everyone else getting on

the ski mountain getting
on the reservoir or

the lake is is a job
in itself so uh let's

talk about that but
but before we do uh the

tetra watercraft is
looks like a hobie cat

and they can use either
choice joystick or

mouth control for
independent control of

steering sail management
and in this case

electric propulsion as
well so uh you have a

configuration that
doesn't necessarily use

sails it's just uh
electric propulsion correct

yeah that's why we
um at least for right

now we're calling it
a watercraft because

it's not just a kayak
and it's not just a

sailboat it can do both
but i think if you're

a power wheelchair
user and you want to go

kayaking you know kayaking
would be with power

and so that's that
was kind of the the

thinking behind that
also and it's pretty nice

on a on a non-windy
day to still be able

to take out the boat
and have a great time.

Or certainly when
it's too windy and you

really can't use the
sail when you're trying

to maneuver in through
the marina or to come

to the beach, you can
still independently

take this boat in any
conditions with the

power part of it into
and away from shore as

well. So every part
of the experience can

be independent. That's
the Tetra watercraft.

And then you have
designed, built, and

deployed a powered
accessible docking system,

PADS, pads to sort of
maximize your access

to the lakes and the
reservoirs. Can you tell

us about that? That's
quite an apparatus.

Absolutely. So I think
you're starting to

get into our thinking
pattern, which is really

just to pick away at
every little issue

that's keeping people
from participating.

And so we really
didn't like the lack of

ability for individuals
with disabilities to be

able to even use boats
to get on boats, or

even the process of
getting into our Tetra

watercraft involved,
you know, multiple

people and transferring
from a chair to the

boat. And so we thought
there must be a more

elegant way to do
it. And so we had the

engineers at the
university help us design a

large, it's relatively
large, it's 30 feet

by eight feet. And
it's really, it looks a

lot like a patio boat.
It's a large platform

that's free of
obstructions and you can

maneuver on a wheelchair.
And there's a rolling

ramp that rolls from
the shore all the

way onto the boat. And
so it's like ADA access

to the boat. And then
once you're on there,

all of the other
boats can be accessed.

So there's a side lift
and a back lift, and

we can bring the
smaller boats into the

mothership, into the
big boat, and do a very

easy level transfer from
their wheelchairs to

the boat, and then
really gracefully drop

people down into the
water with these electric

lifts. And then they're
often going with

their electric boats.
And so it's just this

really beautiful,
graceful, seamless

experience that hasn't
really been seen before.

When you say it hasn't
really been seen

before, and it's the
world's first, same as your

SIT ski, the Tetra
ski, especially because

we're so closely associated
in Park City with

the National Ability
Center, we've seen a

lot of different types
of adaptive technology

and things like SIT
skis. But what makes

it different? You know,
did you have people

coming to you, like
the National Ability

Center, saying, how do
we get one step further?

Yeah, this is mostly
driven from our patients.

And so my primary day
-in and day-out job

is the physician for
individuals with spinal

cord injury. And I've
been out here in Utah

since 2001. And we've
developed an adaptive

sports program over
the years. And I've had

some patients come
to me directly when I

encourage them to participate
and say, you don't

actually have something
in your program

that I would enjoy. And
so I challenge you to

design something. I've
had a number of patients

tell me, I would be
happy to play with

you guys if you could
design something that

would be fun for us.
And so that was really

the motivation behind
it. And looking into the

gear that was on the
market already, it

really didn't accommodate.
There definitely are

products where you can
take someone with a

very significant
disability and put them on

the water or put them
on the hill, but it's

very dependent. It's a
very dependent activity

where you're highly
at the mercy of the

instructor to help
with steering and speed

control and all that.
And it's that element of

independence, of
autonomy and performance

that I think people are
really motivated by.

So you had a great
piece on a national news

program about the
Tetra ski last March, I

think it was, and you
were featured in it along

with a skier who
had, I believe he was

involved in a ski
accident and became a

quadriplegic, is that
right? That's correct. He

loved to ski, and he
hasn't been able to since

then, and it's a
very emotional piece,

really. It's incredible
and very inspiring. Was

he an example of a
patient that said to

you, you know, if only
I could dot, dot, dot?

He actually
wasn't. He just

assumed that he
couldn't ski.

And so he didn't
even know enough

to suggest that
he, you know, he'd

want to get back
out there again.

And so he was really
surprised. He didn't

really think the
technology would be

available that would
give him a similar

experience. And he was
almost, I would say,

even a little
reluctant at first to

think of it as something
that would give

him that same thrill
that he had before.

And that was the biggest
surprise to him and

to us is how exactly
the same it is to the

skiing that he was
doing before in terms of

all those sensations
of gravity and cold and

wind and just the
beauty of being outside.

So for our listeners,
you have the power

accessible docking
system, which allows them

access to the reservoir
or to the lake. You

have this boat that
can be sailed or it

could also have electric
propulsion, and they

have independent
control of steering. But

you just don't let them
go and do their thing.

You're watching
them from the shore

because I believe you
have some sort of wireless

remote control. Can
you talk about that?

Yeah, great. Glad
you brought it up.

There's a lot of safety
systems. We really

don't want anything
to go wrong, and we

recognize there could
be some failures in

the system. So for
some of our folks,

let's say on the
watercraft, some of them

are actually on
ventilators, and we're

actually out there in
the boat with them,

and they're freely
sailing and doing what

they want, but we're
there as backup.

For some of the
folks that don't

need as much close
medical attention,

we actually have this
wireless remote system.

It looks a lot like
a PlayStation remote

control, and we can be
on a personal watercraft

or another boat.
and just be close by

to be able to take
over if there was some

sudden gust of wind or
they lost control or

even the sip and pop
device maybe even fell

out of their mouth and
they couldn't control

it we could just
safely bring it over to

us and and help out
in that situation and

that's available for
the ski also so there's

an instructor that does
go out on the lesson

and there is actually
a tether that's

connected just in case
there was some catastrophic

failure in the system
but the idea is to

really never need to
use the tether and

there's a remote control
system in case someone

puffs instead of sipping
or sipping instead

of puffing, and we
need to quickly control

their direction
before they go over

anything dangerous. Lynn
and I both enjoy skiing

very much. We enjoy
the craft of skiing.

It's fun. It's good
exercise, but we really

love the independence
and being out in these

extraordinary mountains
here in the Wasatch

system, and we both
independently watched

on your website the
video you had of all

these different angles
showing the skier coming

down the hill from
the perspective of the

person who was
tethering him, from the

perspective of the skier,
from off on the side

watching the whole
thing. And it's just

great that all sorts of
different people that

have now not had access
can get out there

and really experience
it and have some fun.

And I didn't
have a question

there. I just
wanted to say that.

Absolutely.

And as someone that
I go out quite a bit

with these folks,
too, and it really is

great. I mean, from
being behind the

ski and watching how
gracefully it carves

these wonderful
turns, and it's just

so, I mean, skiing in
general is a graceful

sport. And, you know,
with significant

disability, sometimes
it's hard to get

back to kind of
graceful movement. And

I think the ski and
the boat, honestly,

you know, offers that
again. So I just love

watching it. I love
watching the different

conditions, whether
it's hard pack or

even deep powder.
We'll put on some wide

skis. You know, we can
go off-piste, we're in

the trees, and I'm
surprised every year

now about the places
we're going and the

things we're doing with
this mechanical ski.

It's so interesting,
the similarities

between the watercraft
and the ski.

But I'm wondering,
can we go back

to the blowing and
the puffing and

the *******? And
how does it actually

transfer from
your puff into,

you know, I know
that it has the

mechanical ability
to go up on an edge

on one side. And
can you give us a

little layman's
perspective there?

Sure. We basically had
the mechanical engineers

and computer scientists
at the university

create basically the
computer that sits

in between, you know,
the motors that are

on there. And so we're
just interpreting

breath, and that's
blowing out or ******* in

and doing that in some
kind of sequence. So

it could be blowing
out twice in a row or

breathing in twice in
a row or breathing out

and breathing in, single
or double, any kind

of combination, almost
like a Morse code.

And what we'll do is
we actually have a

simulator, and we'll
have our students run

the simulator and
actually help decide how

they want to turn
right or how they want

to turn left or how
they want to control

the motors on the
sailboat. and we can map

that to the real
device in real life.

And so we really take
people's personal

preferences of how it's
more comfortable to

breathe in and out and
then set that up to

control these complex
devices. That's

incredible. So if you're
someone who likes to

make short slalom
turns versus big arcing

GS turns, you could
set it up for that.

Yeah, you can actually,
you can completely

dial in the performance
of the ski. And we do

that actually now.
Yeah, we actually have

a beginner and an advanced
mode, so the beginner

has less options.
The actuators on the

skis move a little more
slowly, and then we

give people more and
more control of the ski

and their wedge shape
and the ski angle and

how fast the ski moves
as they get better.

Just want to mention
your website. It's

tetradapt.us. That's T
-E-T-R-A-D-A-P-T. As our

listeners go to the
website, those that

aren't driving, and
they take a peek at some

of the videos, and you
show the person who

is tethered from behind,
I guess you would

call them the instructor,
is that correct?

Correct. Okay.
What are the

requirements to
be an instructor?

That's a great question.
So we have thought

so much, as the ski leaves
us and the mothership,

we really want to
make sure that it's

safe. We have people
that already have these

complex injuries,
and we do worry about

making things worse.
And so we're actually

bringing instructors in
and doing a four-day,

very solid training for
people who are already

adaptive ski instructors.
And we're going

through all the different
safety aspects and

the methods of
tethering, and it's often

difficult for people to
grasp holding onto a rope

and onto a remote
control at the same time

that you're trying to
ski and they're trying

to ski. And so it's
really fun, but it's

complex, and it just
takes a little bit of

practice. There's about
17 instructors that

have been certified now
in the United States.

And when you go skiing,
it's not just an

instructor and the
person in the sit-ski.

A third person is
required at a minimum

to operate that hinge
to be able to get the

person up on the
lift. Is that correct?

It depends on
the weight of the

person. So someone
really 160 pounds

or less, it really
is fairly easy

to go out with
just one person.

But overall, it's
probably best to go out

with two folks together.
And oftentimes it

will be a main instructor
and maybe a family

member or a friend
or care provider.

That will come out also
because that's a big

part of what we do is
really try to encourage

everyone to do it
together. And we'd

also like to make the
instructors the parents

or sons or daughters
of the person in

the ski. and have it
be, you know, much more

of a family affair
and an independent

thing that doesn't
need us at some point

anymore. Our guest is
Jeff Rosenbluth from the

University of Utah's
Rehab Center. And

Jeff, I want to mention
before we let you go,

because you've got a
runoff here to East

Canyon Reservoir.
Again, it's today from

10 to 2. I guess it's
a demo or you've got

some athletes coming
to try out the craft?

Yes. The gentleman that
you mentioned before

that was on the
Today Show will be up

there. And we have
another gentleman, Dustin

Godnick, who actually
lives up in Park City.

Actually, used to
live in Park City. I

think he just moved
down to Salt Lake, and

he'll be up there as
well. And both will

be demonstrating
the Tetra watercraft

today. And because
it's a media day there,

chances are, you know,
with radio, we can

only go so far with
audio and not video. But

chances are tonight on
the local news, you'll

see some great video
of the event. So

that's really exciting.
And before we let you

go, I just wanted
to ask you about the

support that you get at
the University of Utah

for bringing these types
of things to market

to enable their
existence, really. And I

learned about you first
through the Center

for Technology and
Venture Commercialization

that I know that you
worked with. So could

you just give us an
overview, because I

think a lot of people
don't know about that.

Yeah, I think there's
been a little bit of a

transition in academics
to, well, a lot of

times when people have
great ideas, they would

take those ideas and
they would spin those

and become a company and
leave the university.

And, you know, my
dream was to continue

to be working at the
university and building

new products and
innovating and doing that

with the students and
the different colleges

throughout the
university. And so the

university has been
incredibly supportive of

helping us to form this
company, Tetra Adapt

Community, which we
needed to form to be able

to actually bring these
products to folks.

And so far, the way
we've been able to do it

is with other grants. And
so we actually haven't

sold them yet. We've
used these grants

to subsidize leases to
be able to get them to

other programs because
we recognize it would

be a very expensive
device for a lot of

programs. So we're really
trying to troubleshoot

not just the device
itself, but how other

programs can acquire
them and how we can use

them efficiently and
spread them to all of

the programs that need
them. And the university

has been incredibly
supportive, not just

of helping us build
the company to build

them, but also the staff
here to do the training

for all the new
instructors and to get

these skis out there
and to really test them.

Right.

Jeff Rosenbluth
is the founder

of Tetradapt at
the University

of Utah's
Rehabilitation Center.

Jeff, thanks so
much for joining

us on Cool Science Radio.

And it's really
exciting, promising work

that you're doing.
And best of luck

today. Thank you very
much for having me

on your show and for
your interest in all

of these Tetra
products. I really

appreciate the time.
All right. Thank you.

Bye-bye. Thank you.
Take care. Bye-bye.

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